Africa's Poverty Is Made of Laws, Not of People

Senegalese entrepreneur Magatte Wade tells Lex Fridman how tariffs, Napoleonic codes, and a Cold War wrong turn keep the world's youngest continent poor.

MWMagatte WadeGast
Kanal
Lex Fridman Podcast
Veröffentlicht
13. Aug. 2022
Video
3:33:04
Lesezeit
24 Min.
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Englisch
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In 30 Sekunden

Magatte Wade makes lip balm in Senegal for Whole Foods shelves, and she can tell you exactly what a 40 percent tariff does to a jar that has to compete with an American rival. In a long conversation with Lex Fridman she argues that sub-Saharan Africa is the poorest region on earth because it is also among the most overregulated, and that pity, donated shoes, and Marxist politics cannot substitute for economic freedom. The work she wants is unglamorous: level the legal playing field, reform at the local level, and, if piecemeal lawmaking is too slow, build startup cities where the best business rules can run inside existing countries.

  1. 1The next time you hear a sweeping claim about Africa, ask whether it is true of 54 countries or of one country's rulebook. Mix those layers and the conversation is already lost.
  2. 2A friend of Wade's put the test she keeps using: having a heart for the poor is easy; having a mind for them is the challenge. Free shoes, housing rules, and tariff walls all fail that test.
  3. 3Corruption is a thermometer, not the feverWhen a passport, a meter, or a shipment only moves after a bribe, the law has already made honesty the expensive option.
  4. 4Muhammad Yunus's line, which Wade carries everywhere, is that poor people are bonsai people: the same seed as everyone else, trapped in a pot made of hostile rules.
  5. 5Pity never turns into respectWade says mass Black prosperity, especially in Africa, where nine in ten Black people live, is the only force that melts stereotypes into a power others must take seriously.
  6. 6Piecemeal reform is too slow for Africa's youth bulge, so she is pushing startup cities. All she needs is one success story, and the climate changes.
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01

Teranga means Senegal does not fear the stranger

Asked what the soul of Senegal is, Magatte Wade does not reach for a slogan about development. She offers a Wolof word, *teranga*, which she translates as hospitality: a warmth that, in her telling, runs through how Senegalese people speak, host, and treat a visitor as if they had been waiting a lifetime. The duty is strongest toward the foreigner, because someone who has traveled that far, by choice or by force, is owed a welcome. There is, she says, neither fear of the stranger nor suspicion of the stranger, and she traces that openness to a people who feel grounded enough in their own culture to open the door.

Lex Fridman, recording in Austin, hears an echo. Boston, Philadelphia, and San Francisco taught him a career calculation before kindness; Austin still lets people simply hang out. Wade had the same sequence, from San Francisco to New York to Austin, and the same worry: early builders make a place, prosperity then attracts what she calls the bling followers, and it is time to leave. Fridman hopes Austin can still be Silicon Valley's early days, weirdos and engineers together; Wade points to Nicole Nodzak's housing work, which tries to keep the city affordable across incomes so that diversity is not only a checkbox of gender and skin color. The diversity she wants includes artists and engineers, dropouts and PhDs, and, hardest of all in the Bay Area she left, diversity of thought.

Housing is where her economic argument first shows itself. Rules sold as protection for the less fortunate, she says, choke supply, raise prices, and push those same people out first. A friend told her the line she now repeats: having a heart for the poor is easy; having a mind for the poor is the challenge. When adding a story to a house in Berkeley becomes a legal ordeal, scarcity is a policy choice, and she already sees the same culprit she will name for Africa: bad laws and piles of senseless regulation.

02

Africa is a shared origin and a shared wound, not a country

In the West, Wade says, Africa is talked about as if it were one place. At the most basic level she accepts a unity: every listener is African, because the human story starts there, once hung by its fingernails when only a couple of thousand people were left, then spread until hair, eyes, and skin adapted to new habitats. National Geographic's Genographic work with Spencer Wells, she notes, made that deep history visible. The next layer is bleaker and more specific. Sub-Saharan Africa, almost in the same historical window, was enslaved and colonized, and that shared ordeal became a shared memory.

She corrects a habit of mind along the way. The English word *slave*, she reminds Fridman, comes from *esclav* and from the Slavs; the first mass of people sold that way looked more like him than like her. What sticks in the modern psyche is that Africans were the last such group. Ghana, Benin, and Senegal keep the Door of No Return: in Senegal's slave house, one doorway was the last look home. Fridman asks whether that history curdles into resentment of the foreigner who arrives for land and resources. In daily Senegal, she says, it does not. Resentment starts when visitors bring entitlement, or a pity she can barely discuss politely, as if the people around them were still servants.

Her line is simple. Come as a person, treat her as a person, and she will not bill you for your ancestors. Come with the old hierarchy on your face and someone like her may walk you back to the airport. A newer resentment, including her own, is aimed at institutions that still decide Africa's borders and development path: the World Bank, the UN, the World Economic Forum, all of which her pan-African friends call imperial. Those borders are absurdly straight; kingdoms that were one people were sliced into Senegal and Mali. She considers herself pan-African on the destination, a united continent, and argues with her camp about the route.

03

Prosperity is a business operating system, not a political costume

Fridman asks the question that has haunted Wade since childhood: what does it take for a country to prosper? She will only answer if the word is kept economic. Prosperity, for her, means a middle-to-high-income country that can fund its needs, not a verdict on family law, women's suffrage, or how communist or liberal the rest of life looks. China and Dubai confuse people, she says, because critics mix those layers. Stick to how a nation makes money, and a pattern appears.

The pattern is economic freedom plus what she calls the entrepreneur's toolkit: rule of law, clear and transferable property rights, and a climate in which people create value instead of extracting rents. East and West Germany were the same people with opposite outcomes; so were South and North Korea. Dubai, Singapore, and England look nothing like one another and still rhyme on prosperity. Run whatever social software you like, she argues, so long as the business layer is at least a base of free markets. That is the operating system she wants for Africa, and it is the thread the rest of the conversation will pull.

04

A seven-year-old in Germany asked why life is so easy here

Wade did not meet that question in a seminar. She was about seven, leaving Senegal for the first time to join parents who had migrated to Europe, and she stopped in Germany in winter. At home a shower was an expedition: grandmother lighting charcoal as if on a camping stove, boiling a pot, mixing it in a bucket, a stronger relative dragging it to the bath. In Germany her mother told her to jump in. She would not undress until she saw the bucket. Then she turned the taps and the water came down already warm. The roads were paved; in Dakar they were sand, her feet always ashy, her shoes ruined. She was not asking why they had money. She was asking why life was so easy.

The question never left. Africa now has better arteries, she grants, and Nigeria recently birthed six unicorns, but she still sees talent swimming through molasses, a waste of human capital she calls immoral. Street sellers in Dakar weave through traffic in the heat selling ironing boards, umbrellas, and Q-tips; ask their degrees and you hear math or literature. IQ stories told to her face, the claim that her skin encodes a lesser mind, the lectures about education, malnutrition, and donated shoes, all collapsed for one reason. The same person, same name, same face, moves from a poor country to a rich one and the unused potential appears. The defect is not in the person. It is in the place, and places can be rewritten.

05

She stayed in business because the hibiscus growers would not let her quit

Silicon Valley in the late 1990s taught her a cliché that still feels true: people sketch an idea on a napkin, find a lawyer and a CPA, and try to make something from nothing. She did not become an entrepreneur to get rich. Most founders she respects, she says, start because a problem bothered them enough that they criticized by creating, a kamikaze path with a huge failure rate. Her problem was hibiscus, the flower behind *bissap*, Senegal's national drink and the juice of teranga itself. Once Coca-Cola and Pepsi made their bottles the cool thing to hold, the market for the flower collapsed, a piece of cultural identity thinned out, and the women who grew it slid toward abject poverty.

She was about to sign her first term sheet when her first husband died. Investors told her she could stop; they would follow her lead. She spent a month in Senegal, decided to let go, and went to tell the women, then about 400 of them, later 9,000. She could not meet the eyes of their elderly representative. The woman said, look at me, child, and then the sentence that sent her back: she knew the pain, but where Wade's husband was, Wade could do nothing for him, and for them she could change everything. The company that began in her kitchen later had PepsiCo chairman Roger Enrico on the board. Entrepreneurs at their best, she says, are not saviors delivering food. They are people who got a leg up and are trying to give one.

06

Getting electricity took nine months, a mayor's truck, and a borrowed ladder

The company, launched around 2004, had to be twins: a Senegalese sister for the supply chain, an American one for research, sales, and marketing. Registering an LLC in the United States took hours and a few hundred dollars, now twenty minutes online, with no need to know a guy who knew a politician. In Senegal she still had to visit three government offices in person every month, one for pensions, one for health, and a third, just to drop paperwork. In Texas, below a million dollars in revenue, franchise tax is a five-minute filing. In Senegal there is a minimum tax of a thousand dollars even if, as she showed Fridman, you made zero.

Electricity for the first office became a parable. They applied, paid, and waited not two days but nine months, money already sitting with the utility, product already pre-sold. The district head pointed to a stack of single-sheet applications and to two meters: each file needed one of those, and she could count. She did not bribe him. She told him why she was there, and he said a woman like her had no reason to suffer this when she could be living in America. One of the two meters became hers. Then they needed a truck for the long cable; the city had one truck. She borrowed the mayor's. Then the utility's professional ladder was in a village for three or four days. She borrowed the mayor's ladder too.

Labor law is the same trap in another costume. On paper, she told the head of the ILO at the UN, the Senegalese employee is among the most protected in the world; on the same paper, Senegal is among the 25 poorest countries. Google did not add chef-cooked meals and on-site childcare because a labor office ordered it. Those perks appeared because enough jobs exist that employers must compete for talent. Protect workers by making it sane to hire them, she argues, not by marrying every entrepreneur to a payroll they cannot unwind.

07

A forty-percent tariff is the disease; the bribe is only the thermometer

Fridman, who grew up around Soviet bureaucracy, asks how deep corruption runs. Wade's joke is that it is almost as bad as Chicago. The serious point is that people treat corruption as the root when it is a symptom. Her lip balms and other skin-care products sit on Whole Foods shelves, so inputs have to meet that standard. Seven items must be imported. On five she pays a 40 percent tariff; on two, almost 70. A dollar of raw material becomes $1.40 at the factory. To keep any profit she must charge $1.60 more than an American woman making the same product in America. That, she says, is not a level playing field. That is a law designed to make her lose.

She sits on the board of Conscious Capitalism, the network of purpose-driven firms that includes Whole Foods and The Container Store. Purpose is the point of a company, she says, but profit is the oxygen, or, in the image she offers Fridman, the red blood cells. You would not say your biggest goal in life is to manufacture erythrocytes; without them there is no you, and without you there is no work. About one percent of people in any field are psychopaths, including among entrepreneurs, and they do not get to define the rest. At port, the alternative to the 40 percent is a quiet 5 or 10 percent to an official. She will not take that road, because she is a public target and because she does not want to. Honesty, under those tariffs, is the expensive choice.

The mayor went through binders looking for an escape hatch. After two years in business she could apply for a special regime: bring materials in tax-free if she disclosed the recipe down to quantities, so nobody could divert surplus onto the local market, and if every unit was exported within a year. She asks Fridman to imagine Coca-Cola handing its secret sauce to officials in a country where those papers might go anywhere, including to a future competitor. For the first two years her firm lived in a gray area, which sounds mild until you notice it means officials can always find something if they want her harassed or jailed. Senseless law, in her summary, forces anyone who wants to succeed to be dishonest.

08

Poor people are bonsai people, and the pot is the legal code

Fridman sees two ways to change this: become president, or build businesses until the law has to move. Wade wants the second, and she is impatient with Africans, and with Americans, who think the presidency is where power lives. If you insist on politics, she says, go local, where the skeletons are buried and where a person can actually matter. Her own method is to preach and to practice. Preach is this conversation. Practice is surviving the two rulebooks long enough to see the causal chain: you are poor because you have too little money; money comes from income; most income is a job; jobs come from the private sector, especially small and medium firms. Government paychecks are taxes on that same sector. Make the doing-business environment friendly, or stop pretending you want jobs.

Tomatoes need a decent seed and a decent habitat, pH, sun, climate; she notes, dryly, that Siberia can grow beautiful ones. Muhammad Yunus, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate, gave her the metaphor she prefers: poor people are bonsai people. Put them in a normal habitat and they become the tallest trees in the forest. The tiny pot is the hostile legal environment she jumps through every day. World Bank Doing Business rankings, the Fraser Institute's economic freedom index, and the Heritage Foundation's all agree: it is harder to run a firm almost anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa than almost anywhere in Scandinavia. The Nordic countries Americans praise as socialist make their money like capitalists, then argue about how to share it. How you earn and how you redistribute are different questions. For the climb from low or middle income to high, she says, there is still only one known path.

When that diagnosis finally landed, she fell to her knees, like a patient who had toured specialists for years and met the person who named the illness. Colonialism, racism, and resource theft are, she grants, part of the story, not the overwhelming or unsurmountable part, and staying there steals agency. Seventy-five percent of Senegal is under 25. The continent is rich in land, minerals, languages, and youth, and it is also the most overregulated region she knows. Fifty-four countries, almost all of them missing the freedom that unlocks the rest. If you believe an African entrepreneur should have as easy a time as a Scandinavian one, she says, you have a moral obligation to help make the continent more free-market. She has not yet met anyone who will say out loud that it should be harder.

09

The liberation generation threw out the market with the empire

Pre-colonial Africans, Wade says, drawing on the Ghanaian economist George Ayittey, who died in 2022 and from whom she learned, were free marketeers on trade and enterprise. Then came the slave trade, then colonization, then independence. The Asian tigers, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, took the other fork: they got serious about markets, often from rubble and without resources, and the results followed. After the 1930s crash and the Depression, with Soviet propaganda insisting communism was fine while people starved, the free-market idea nearly died. Almost every intellectual, she says, was some kind of Marxist or socialist. Independent Africa's first presidents drank that cup. Léopold Sédar Senghor, Senegal's first president, was a socialist and lasted forty years. France also left behind Napoleonic civil law, a skeleton built for bureaucracy.

She can forgive that generation. Information was scarce, and the West that preached capitalism was also the West that had enslaved and colonized them, while socialists talked equal rights. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater was human. It is not forgivable, she will say later, for people who have had sixty years to debrief. Her advice to young Africans is not to take her gospel on faith. Do the intellectual journey she had to do, coming from the left, with a front-row seat on two continents. Learn the facts until they both empower and power you. Steal the world's best tools, including Bitcoin, which is math, not a white man's toy, and then put an African twist on them. Catch-up time is gone; leapfrogging is not. Central planning, she and Fridman agree, will never match the street-level intelligence of seven billion people who each arrived with a piece of the human problem.

10

Identity is Dakar, Paris, San Francisco, and three sentences from a grandmother

Who is she, when it gets quiet? Wade has not asked herself that in a long time. She names the sequence: Dakar, Paris, San Francisco, and now a little Austin, Texas, which she enjoys pronouncing as *succès*. From Senegal she keeps peace, love, tolerance, teranga, and reverence. She cannot imagine telling an elder they are lying; disagreement must leave the older person's dignity intact. From France she keeps what she calls fineness: lace, fashion, food in smaller portions, a table that is communion rather than fueling. She and her American husband still eat every meal together, however busy the day. Fridman, passing through Paris on the way to Ukraine, found that same polish a barrier if you cannot play the local music. Wade does not deny the uppity side. She just wants him in a countryside kitchen, not a Michelin room, before he judges the portions.

On entrepreneurship her verdict on France is colder. Life there is pre-installed: born in this district, school nearby, marry close, buy one house, never sell it two years later. Venture capital at American scale is not in the air. She raised $32 million for her first company; she does not believe that bet exists in France. She and her late husband drifted from French friends who could not metabolize a twenty-something raising a million or two, in a culture where money and success are suspicious enough that the couple felt, absurdly, as if they were being pictured as drug dealers. None of that, she says, makes French people bad. The fire is simply lower, as it is with philanthropy. In Senegal she is Mourid, of the most influential of the four brotherhoods, whose mantra is to pray as if you will die tomorrow and work as if you will never die. The dead, they say, have retired from their work. French-style schooling then sands that entrepreneurial grain down. America, for her, plugged it back in and handed her better tools.

Before she left Senegal, her grandmother crouched to her eye line. Most people where she was going would not look like her, would not speak her language, and the children would already have been to school, which she had not. She could be impressed. She was not allowed to be intimidated. Different skin is still human skin; a different language is still a human language, so she could learn it; school is what little humans do, and she was a little human. Internalize that early, Wade says, and you belong to the human family wherever you land. She arrived in the United States on a tourist visa and was caught by Carol and Eldon Wentz of Columbus, Indiana, a mid-American town coastal elites mock as having more churches and cows than people. Their church found her an apartment; they gave her a real job catching up years of accounting and building marketing, not a pity placement. They later told her their plate was too small for her future, paid for visa and lawyer and H-1B, and sent her toward San Francisco, where she left her heart. Completely different skin, completely different faith, and no one had ordered them to do it. Most people, she concludes, are good, and the courage worth practicing is to show up with curiosity, empathy, and love.

11

Black lives matter as a sentence; the organization as a mistake Africa already made

Fridman asks what she makes of Black Lives Matter in America. The three words, in that order, she accepts without hedge: Black lives matter as any lives do, and she understands why the phrase became a cry. The organization is another matter. Self-proclaimed Marxist socialists claiming to stand for Black life make her pause and ask whether anyone has learned a thing. She takes the story back to Manchester in 1945, the Fifth Pan-African Congress, where future African liberators sat with Marcus Garvey and W.E.B. Du Bois, then in his seventies and the elder in the room. Du Bois had gone south, seen lynchings and body parts in store windows, and moved from reform toward something more radical. Communists and socialists, to their credit in that hour, were fighting for equal rights while Africa was still colonized. Aligning with them was human.

Ghana left British rule in 1957; Senegal's independence day was April 4, 1960; the Cold War was the air those governments breathed. Capitalism's face was the West that had enslaved and colonized them; the other bloc talked solidarity. Wade calls the result a fatal mistake: agree on equal rights, refuse violent revolution and the economic program, and do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. They did. Most first independent governments were socialist or statist of some kind. She has compassion for Nkrumah, Nyerere, and their peers. She will not extend it to BLM's founders. The same two sentences, Black lives matter and we are Marxist socialists, cannot be serious together, because prosperity requires free markets and prosperity is economic power. If people are going to mess with you, she said at the top of the episode, they will have to think twice.

Respect on a world scale, she argues, will not come from a few exceptions, an Oprah here and someone else there. It will come from a critical mass of Black prosperity, and Africa holds about 90 percent of Black people. Senegal richer than France, Nigeria and Tanzania and Zimbabwe functioning, a continent as prosperous as Switzerland or Singapore: that is when stereotypes melt. You may still not like us, she says, but you will respect us, because we will be a force. Pity does not turn into respect; she says it twice. Breathing oxygen is not a white method. Treating markets as racially tainted is, in her analogy, like refusing to exhale carbon dioxide because that is how white people breathe.

12

Bias is the brain's power-saving mode, not a reason to surrender agency

Does racism exist? Yes, Wade says, along with ableism, size prejudice, and the rest of the isms. Will it stop someone from manifesting their potential? She says no, and points to African Americans and African immigrants who made it through nastiness. Resilience is human, but only if you refuse to hand over agency. That is why she is furious at the anti-racism of Ibram X. Kendi and Robin DiAngelo, which she hears as sorting every person into a racial category and calling the sorting justice. DiAngelo, in Wade's account, is a woman from a racist background selling a book as indulgence. Telling white children they are oppressors and Black children they are a type does not fight racism. It plants problems where children, being children, had none.

The summer of Philando Castile and Eric Garner, 2016, was her George Floyd moment, years before the country's. She went looking for a science of bias among neuroscientists, behavioral psychologists, and evolutionary biologists, and found a University of Wisconsin team whose paper was not a political tract. Around age three, the story goes, a child must start judging fast whether a person or a situation is good or bad, because a slow answer can be fatal. Brains chase efficiency through automation; an algorithm, once computed, is stored until something new forces a rewrite. Neural pathways are habits. Unconscious bias is that habit layer, not the one percent of psychopaths who will say outright that she can never be equal. Hardware is the brain; software is cultural imprint: Disney princesses, pink for girls, Africa as blood diamonds and dictators. Black people run the same software. Fight-or-flight is the cousin: the bear is gone, the adrenaline has nowhere to go.

The work, then, is inward, a five-step practice she built with a friend: spot bias in movies, news, even an NPR host who asks only the woman candidate how she balances family; replace it; practice empathy by standing in the followed-around-the-store position; try cultural immersion, as a feminist who hated hijabs did by breaking Ramadan fasts at a mosque; and finally make a real connection, at which point reality knocks the habit over. People who did this found biases about body size or about dating Asian men. It is private, at each person's pace, and it is not a lecture that you are the problem. For anyone serious about racism she wants tools and agency kept intact: criminal-justice reform with Van Jones and Alice Johnson, who was pardoned by President Trump; Anton Lucky, who started a South Dallas gang, found Plato in prison, and now does redemption block by block; the late Bishop Omar, who said you do not stop pulling someone who is six feet in the mud just because the head is not visible yet. School choice is on the same list, because Black mothers asking for it are not fools. Lawn signs, another anti-racism book, and a DEI budget that backfires are, in her phrase, a white-savior complex. Teach a person to fish.

The same mind-for-the-poor test wrecks a famous charity. In the Senegalese town where she manufactures, some 2,000 mom-and-pop shops made shoes and hired five to fifteen people each, family businesses. Then a buy-one-give-one truck, TOMS in her telling, arrived with free pairs. Nobody competes with free. Shops closed, and the children those wages had shod joined the line of children who now needed donated shoes. Blake Mycoskie may have won; she is not sure anyone else did. Heart is easy. Mind is the work.

13

Do not beg for wheat on a continent with the most arable land

In June 2022, Senegal's president Macky Sall, then chair of the African Union, met Vladimir Putin about food security. Many African states abstained or skipped the UN votes on the war in Ukraine. Wade reads that as a sequel, not a mystery: the West ropes Africa in when it needs a vote, then divides the Halloween candy without her. Fridman calls the abstentions a political way of resisting Western influence, not a theory of the war itself. She accepts that, then turns sharper. She was unhappy to watch African leaders plead for grain ships. Africa, she says, has the most land you can farm and a vast surface area. After COVID, the United States and Europe started pulling supply chains home. Why was this not Africa's window to wean itself off imported cereals? She understands why a president negotiates in a crisis, and that crops take time. If the other track, actual food autonomy, is not moving, it is the old script: leave one patron for another.

Africa is 1.3 billion people, about a billion of them Black, the youngest region on earth, and by 2050 Lagos is on track to be the world's largest city. Wade will not call that youth a curse. It becomes one if they are not allowed to partake, and partaking does not mean more aid. Treat people who could work as dependents, she says, and you are picturing parasites; humans should never be seen that way. Every young person, in her arithmetic of seven billion geniuses, may hold a cancer cure for a wife she has not met yet. The future is African either way. The fork is hope, jobs, and firms, or a ticking bomb of young people with no exit. That is why she runs the Center for African Prosperity at the Atlas Network, backing local free-market think tanks, including Imani in Ghana, and why piecemeal reform, stacking new laws on bad ones until a hundred rules fight each other, is no longer enough.

Paul Romer calls them charter cities; others say free cities; she likes startup cities. Inside a country, on a mostly empty plot, copy global best practice for business only: not family law, not religion, not culture, entry voluntary. Dubai, on 110 acres in her telling, decided sharia was the wrong OS for international commerce, hired retired British common-law judges, and became a top financial center in a generation. Zones need not clone one another: medical research here, crypto there. The Asian tigers and China's special economic zones, which she calls a miracle for lifting 800 million people, with problems later arrivals can learn from, are the precedent. Zambia already has such a zone; Nigeria has a project; one country she will not name thrills her most. People call her crazy. She asks how many crashes the Wright brothers needed. All she needs is one success. Then the climate changes.

14

She shoved grief under the rug for years, then found love looking the same way

Fridman asks what held her after her husband died. Not an abstract courage: thousands of women already ate because of her, and she no longer owned herself. Duty, somehow, was stronger than pain. She shoved grief under the rug for years, flying three states in three days, landing at 2 a.m. and riding with distributors at dawn, hanging on the life-preserver those women were. Later the floor gave way. She was mapping why nations are rich or poor while living in a left-leaning network that would rather run for the hills than admit capitalism might be part of the answer, even as they profited from it. She had a rupture with a father figure she had trusted completely, a man who died the previous year, and she will not speak ill of the dead. She lost perhaps 90 percent of her friends to ideology, wondered whether her life had been built on a lie, and felt like a candle in the wind. People who hear this say, you? She says, yes, me.

What pulled her out was her husband now, Michael Strong. Love, she says, is the answer, but not the staring-into-eyes kind. Strong and Whole Foods founder John Mackey ran a nonprofit, FLOW, about human flourishing. After her first company she wanted a foundation that would give African women entrepreneurs what she had needed: help with accounting, marketing, coaching, money to turn a grandmother's recipe into a shelf-stable product, not a grant that is a nicer word for charity. They talked for hours every day for months. Love, for them, is looking in the same direction, at a world that appears if people are left free. Every airplane takeoff is an engineering miracle; so is a dentist who can take the pain away. Humans, she says, are walking miracles. Fridman calls it one of the most powerful conversations he has had. She laughs that she had wondered how talking to Lex Fridman would go, then tells him to check his unconscious bias. He leaves her, and the listener, with Nelson Mandela: money will not create success. The freedom to make it will.

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